Back and More Pissed Off Then Ever

Yes, I am back.  Hold your applause till after my entire post please.

So recently I have read some postings by a new blogger who calls himself “Mainstream Jew“.  This is he has proved in one very quick night to be completely false since he specifically said, there is no creator who is receiving your prayers”.  No matter if someone is Orthodox, Haredi, Reform, Conservative or any other sect the majority of Jews believe there is a G-d in heaven.  How to observe his laws is in question, but the actual existence of G-d? Mainstream Jews believe in Him. If you don’t believe in Him? Then don’t call yourself Jewish, because while you are to me (assuming you have a Jewish mother), technically to the world you are an atheist.

Second I he is just like DK, SJ, OTD and everyone else like them who hates religious correct Judaism.  We must be tolerant of their views, but ours? If they make Jews look crazy we must stop.  This is exactly what happened in Germany at the beginning of the Reform movement.  “Shut down Orthodoxy! (a term they came up with and as my friend Factual Basis points out should be a racist slur) Close their mikvahs! Close the kosher slaughterhouses! We Jews are just like the rest of you! Don’t pay attention to the freaks!”  It’s really crazy the double standards that we are subject to.  I’m honestly considering changing the name of the blog to double standards because most of posts point them out between them and us.

What evidence is there that he/she/it would want you to pray to him for three hours on a Saturday (and how do we know its actually Saturday and not Tuesday).

How long has it been since you have been to Shul MSJ?  My shabbat davening is 2 hours MAX and that’s on a bad weekend.  Next, personally I try and go to shul every single day of the week.  It’s not just saturday, the reason most people go then is because they don’t have work because of the shabbat.  The shabbaton is the 7th day of the week, hence Saturday.  Why not Sunday? Because its not.  The Jews for thousands of years had shabbaton on a Saturday because that’s the day G-d told us was the 7th day.  If its any other day how would they get the millions of Jews all to change the day? How? Wouldn’t there be sects that had it on the old day, that were left over from the old guard?

Which trasitions very nicely into my next point.

What evidence is there that the Torah is his rule and guidebook?

Because he told us.  Yes he told at least 1 million Jews that this is his rule.  This wasnt the 1990’s where someone could have pulled off the special effects or dupted everyone into “hearing” G-d’s voice.  And how to I know it happened? Because my father who was told by his father by his father by his father and so on and so on back to my relative who was at Mount Sinai.  There is someone I know who can literally trace their passing down of the Torah all the way back to Moses (not that he is related, but that he has an accurate line straight from the source of teaching the torah).  I’m waiting for the famous “but there is no archeological evidence” actually there is someone that perfectly correlates with some stuff on the book of prophets.  What about the Torah itself you ask?  Well if you know anything about archeology, you know the famous line “a lack of evidence is not an evidence of lack”.  Just because we haven’t found it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.  All the stuff that has been found does not contradict (in fact most of it supports) stories in the torah.

Whats amazing is yet another double standard.  Everyone agrees there was a Hammurabi code of law.  This is based on very limited finds on the code itself.  However there is no debate as to its existence and place in history.  But the torah? Well it requires us to do something so we must apply a different standard!

The torah was given to our ancestors by G-d himself.  They were there.  The same way we know there was a Civil War, or a Roman Empire, or anything else we didn’t personally live through.  We have history both from first hand accounts and from finds.  While the exodus from egypt has yeilded limited finds its not surprising if you actually think about it.  No one knows their exact route, plus there haven’t been extensive tries to find results, and it’s the desert so digs are very hard especially when one doesnt know even a general 5 mile area to look.

As for your comment about woman equality? You have no idea how I feel on the matter, but of course all orthodox Jews are the same right? I will address my views on woman in Judaism in a post in the near future.

Yes, I’m back and better than ever.  I will keep fighting off these attacks on our people, you do your part and keep reading

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So These Are the Arguments of the “Intellectuals”

Many times we have heard people who hate hassidic, yeshivish, and in general more religous people, argue that these groups are not “intellectual” and the only books they look at are the gemara so they obviously know nothing about a scholarly argument.

On that note I would like to point out what some people I have been arguing with have said after I wrecked them in an intellectual argument.

Half Sours:

You sir, are liar, liar pants on fire. And everyone knows it now. Another kiruvnik discredited. My work here is done.

DK:

Cheerer, have you considered dating a militant feminist? Because your whole, “That’s not funny!” refrain would go over quite well with those women.

DK after someone questioned his making holocaust jokes in the context of the Heeb Magazine Contest for fake holocaust stories

Liz: No matter how you want to spin it, Holocaust “jokes” are not funny.

DK:  Then don’t laugh.

And of course DK’s response to my argument based on his making a satirical posting about the OU giving a haskgacha to Zyklon B

Me: I will not be told that I “didn’t think” from someone who marginalizes the holocaust.

DK: I will not have one of my best satires marginalized by someone who connects issues that are not interrelated.

These are the people who claim there that frummies are “anti-intellectual”.

These are the people who are trying to stop kiruv.

These are the people who say religious people are stopping the advancement of the Jewish People

These are the people we fight for future of our people.

Don’t ever forget it.

Freedom of Religion (for those who agree with him)

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution reads as follows,

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…

Apparently according to Kvetcher when the amendment says “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” it meant only the stuff that he finds sensible.  DK, despite the fact that you find chalov yisroel products “inferior” and have “inflated costs” (which there is substantial proof to back up that claim), it does not mean that people should be allowed to make that part of their religious observance.

He claims that it is

a terrible thing for the U.S. government to be subsidizing these idle haredim who are so “pious” they can’t trust gentile farmers to be delivering cows milk.

but then in the same breath claims that

Maybe the Agudath Israel should teach its people the value of work, and stop “educating” the government on how to treat their degenerate constituency with ever-greater coddling and “sensitivity.”

If these people are not trusting non-Jews for their milk then it must be Jews making the milk.  Is that not good enough work for you?  I see, they should spend their days in front of a computer insulting people who merely express their religion differently then him, because that is good honest American work.

Moreover, just because they have different views in this case it makes them degenerates? Excuse me?  How dare you call them that merely because they believe something you don’t.  Its not like they didn’t go about this the right way.  Do you have any proof that they did something illegal or inappropriate to get the government to agree to this prevision for chalav yisroel?

This is a dangerous line to cross people.  At what point do we draw the line because we find something silly or too stringent?  Soon those “silly Jews” with their “silly specific ways of killing cows” or their “silly rules of kosher”.  While DK may be ok with this i would say all orthodox Jews (not just the silly ones with the hats) would have a problem with this.

Yet again I am forced to ask.  Merely because they want to do something different religiously then DK , and ask for governmental allowance the same as anyone else with a different religious belief, that gives them a “dark heart”?  Taking it a little far are we?  But thats our good friend David Kelsey, always on the forefront of hating other Jews.

It was Bound to Happen…

Well, it was bound to happen.  Sooner or later, despite the fact that DK applauded my disagreement with JSU, Kvetcher has attacked me.  He does this if you like kiruv, or in this case…logic, and the English language?

Let me explain.  If you look at the comment “war” that has been going on my last posting there has been a major disagreement between me, HS and DK.  The main reason I am being attacked on his page is my statement that,

rather then let it be at that (there are far worse traditions for people to attack in Judaism) people like DK attack this tradition (albeit not as the main focus of the posting) as if it also involves killing a human baby.

While there is a great more that we argue about this is what he took exception with.  He begins his post by claimingthat I did not

much success at countering my attacks on Big Kiruv.

Actually, I answered all of your attacks in the comments.  If anything, your post on your page is because you were so fed up with getting smacked around on my page that you figured you would use your own soapbox to try and make it look like you were winning.  Nice try.

My defense of the “killing babies” comment is based on the fact that I was using exaggeration to prove a point.  DK says i was lying.  I let you the public be the judge.  However, let me give you the following points to consider.

The American Heritage Dictionary says that an exaggeration is an intransitive verb which is defined as,

To make overstatements

But I think exaggeration was probably not the right word to use.  Rather I should have used Hyperbole which is defined as

a figure of speech that uses an exaggerated or extravagant statement to create a strong emotional response. As a figure of speech it is not intended to be taken literally.

Wow.  That’s amazing.  Anyone who actually read what DK wrote would know that he didnt actually say it was like killing a baby.  I  even linked to his article so that anyone could read it.  Now he may claim that people may not read it and so they wouldn’t know what he actually said.   Then my question would be: why did you use the exact same argument against someone who wanted you to speak of the different view on JSU?

Brad:  “I applaud your passion for this subject. But, you are clearly masking some aspects of the article for it to fit your agenda.”

DK: “And the article in its entirety is linked.”

Double standards? I think so. But typical DK, the facts won’t stop him.

I think that’s enough for everyone to stew on for a while.  If he continues his assault I will post a list of articles on his site that do EXACTLY what i did (here are two for a preview, one, two)  I used those two because they require no explanation.  All the others I have require an explanation  to understand.

I know I didnt hold up my end by posting the article about respecting other Jews like i said i would.  That will be soon, I had to address this first.

My View on JSU

There is an organization that runs jewish clubs throughout the country called the Jewish Student Union or JSU Kvetcher, among others, have commented that they think that JSU is a part of NCSY and a way to trick public school kids into joining NCSY without their knowledge.

Let me start by saying the following: I think NCSY is great.  I think the work they do is great.  I think that every person who is not religious and is a teen should join NCSY and that NCSY people are doing the right thing by trying to get more and more teens to join so that they can make them religious.

However, the method of using JSU to “trick” kids into joining NCSY and becoming frum is not the answer.  If JSU was merely the name of the NCSY public school arm then I would have no problem with it.  But, the way it is described on the JSU site and everywhere else I have seen it is merely considered a partner group with NCSY. Except that Rabbi Burg (national director of NCSY) is also the “dean” of JSU.  Seems kinda shady to me.

So if I want as many public school kids to join NCSY, why do I have a problem with JSU?  Because it is a form of tricking kids.  If we (religious jews) really believe that observant Judaism is the correct way for a Jew to live his or her life, then why would we need to trick people to do the right thing?  If we truely believe that the Torah (all of it, including the Gemara and Mishna) are truth, then why does NCSY need to hide behind a false entity named JSU?  If we are truely doing G-d’s work then we don’t need to trick people into following us, G-d will open their minds to the words.

Moreover, if JSU truly does allow groups of other denominations into the clubs then these kids will get exposed to USY, NFTY and other groups who’s goals are the complete opposite of NCSY’s.  If i was a member of any Jewish group and they didn’t allow me into the clubs I would throw a hissy fit.  And if I was a NCSY member and they did allow these other groups in I would throw a hissy fit.  This is not ok.

We shouldn’t and cannot be tricking kids.  The reason most people go “off’ is because they don’t have a solid foundation in Juadism.  Either they just accepted whatever they were told and never used logic and reason to reach the conclusion that religious Judaism is correct, or they were tricked with reasoning that was flawed in its conception.  We must correctly educate those teens who aren’t religious so in 10 years when they question their faith they have the backing needed to stay religious.

By tricking kids they can come to resent religious Jews or Jews altogether.  This is not ok.  If Orthodox Judaism is true, then why lie to kids when teaching it?

I Feel So Stupid

I have always been told that Orthodox Judaism is the sect of Judaism that refuses to allow people with different beliefs have their own say.  I have been told time and again by SJ and his whole group of friends that other movements allow opposition and treat dissension with respect.  Even OTD has this viewpoint about orthodoxy.  Well, since Conservative Judaism is so open and willing to hear other opinions I was shocked to read the following in the bible criticism section of Etz Hayim: Torah and Commentary published by The Rabbinical Assembly of The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism,

Many of us naively assume that the Torah that we use today is an exact copy of one original text, but there are many versions of the text of the Torah.

It goes on to talk about different version of the translations of the Torah, not the original hebrew version mind you.  The argument made in this section is that since there are different translations it can be the same book.  Huh?  There are different translations of Beowulf, Don Quixote and various other ancient documents but no one doubts their accuracy to the original text. Whatever.  Moving on.

Beyond that I feel so stupid! I have been so naive!  It’s so nice of the Conservative movement to point this out.  Never-mind the fact that a bible sitting in the pews of a Synagogue has a section with bible critism, I am all for talking about the issues people have but to have a whole section in the book itself? Just plain silly.  The constitutions people carry around don’t have a section ripping the founding fathers for letting slavery stay or having gun ownership as a right, nor is the standard Shakespeare sold with criticisms of his work.  Those are sold in special volumes unto themselves, NOT in the standard print edition.

What really annoys me is that it doesn’t say “some believe” or even “there are some who think that” the Torah is the same.  But rather it is naive to believe otherwise!  How dare I, based on an unbroken chain since the giving of the Torah, KNOW that the Torah is virtually the same document (there is some issue with some LETTERS, just letters, not words, and certainly not content).

This is typical of people who are not as religious as others.  They scream for the rooftops “how dare you try and force me to believe what your believe!? Its my right to believe what I want!“, but then when I believe something different? I’m naive or stupid or any number of insults.

Its very common…”You can believe whatever you want, as long as it’s what I believe.”

UPDATE: It seems that I was mistaken over DK on this, so I have removed his name above.  See, unlike some other bloggers (SJ) I am willing to admit when I may have made a mistaken.

RE: Two Mosholim Part One

A blogger (who has changed his name over and over again because he keeps changing his mind about how he feels about Observant Judaism) recently wrote a post that offers two examples and asks what we (the reader) would do.  Disclaimer: the examples are obviously written in such a way to beg a specific answer.  When doing so he distorts things, makes things into facts that are theories, and ignores things that have been proved, as I will show.  Lets just do the first one today:

Your friend tells you that a super natural being exists. You check up on that, and it turns out nobody has ever seen this being, or has any good evidence that the being exists. The whole thing seems to be entirely fantasy.

Obviously I (in this example) haven’t done a good job checking up on it.  Not only is there a document that is attested to be true at the time by over 2 million people, but this book has an unbroken chain since that time with little to no questioning of differences in the existing text since (besides additions).  It is little to no different from when we are told there was a civil war, or a holy roman empire or even a holocaust…eye witness testimony.  Somehow the Torah is no longer an eyewitness testimony! If we find a Native American document from the exact same time talking about an event no one will question that accuracy of it.

THAT answer is just for starters…but lets more on

When you tell your friend this, he has a conniption fit, and tells you that nobody has ever proven that this being does not exist either.

That is an argument made by people who don’t really believe in G-d and merely want to believe in G-d.  No rational G-d fearing Jew who is worth his weight in gold actually uses that argument.

You think your friend is nuts. But then your friend tell you that not only does this being exist, but it wrote a book, and he shows you the book. You look at the book, and it looks like a typical collection of far fetched miracle tales, and out of date laws and moral values, very similar to many other ancient books.

Except for a great number of distinctions. 1) This is the ONLY book that claims that G-d appeared to more than 1 person at a time, certainly the only one that claims a revelation to 2 million people.  2) I love how liberals all believe that moral values can be out of date.  If they are moral values they should be a constant 3) This “typical collection of far fetched miracles” is only typical because all the other major western religions based their stories off of ours.  Its not typical if everyone stole our version!

Certainly there’s nothing about the book which would make you think a super natural being wrote it.

This is a HUGE fight to be had but let me take a stab at one example.  According to World Wildlife Fund report mentioned in Discovery magazine more than 1,068 new species have been discovered since 1997.  Imagine how many have been discovered since the giving of the Torah over 2,500 years ago.  Especially since at that time we had not discovered 98% of the world including entire continents.

In the Torah it specifically lists by name all the animals that have split hooves but don’t chew their cud, and chew their cud but don’t have split hooves.  BY NAME.  If you are a human and are writing a book you aren’t stupid enough to mention then by name! You give the rule and move on! Don’t be stupid enough, especially with 98% of the world undiscovered, to give specific names!  And yet, since the giving of the Torah not one, NOT ONE animal has been discovered beyond the list given in the Torah that has one and not the other. That is way beyond coincidence or good luck.  That’s divine.

In fact the book itself doesn’t even claim that.

Wrong.  Just flat out wrong.  Over and over it says “the rules that I have given you” the book that “I wrote”.  Anyone you speak to who knows anything will tell you that it isn’t talking about Moshe (especially when it says this book that i gave to Moses.)  Or maybe he had multiple personalities.

Anyways, you take the book to your local university for fact checking and it turns out half the book is completely impossible and much of it is plain wrong.

I recall when people say killing 6 million people is impossible.  I remember that West Point doesn’t study any of the Israeli military victories in their military history class because its impossible to win those wars.  I could go on but I wont.  The very idea behind a miracle is that it’s impossible.  And just plain wrong?  I don’t see any sources for this..try listing one and we can go from there.

Also, linguistic scholars show you that the book was written in different dialects corresponding to different time periods, and they also point out numerous contradictions, omissions, and obvious signs of tampering.

If you are talking about Tanach then yeah of course they were written at different times! It says that!  Omissions? All of a sudden there is a missing book? Like some kind of Oral Torah that would explain the omissions?  Again we agree.  Obvious signs of tampering? See above while I wait for a source that says there is tampering because there is no one I ever heard who says that, even the people who doubt the Torah

You tell this to your friend but he absolutely insists that a super natural being wrote almost every word of it, and anyone who says otherwise just doesn’t know what they are talking about. You think your friend is really nuts. Then he tells you that you must adhere to all the laws in the book, including some very strange ones, and if you don’t, the super natural being will punish you in some way. What do you do?

Well if someone told this to me, i would argue the same way I have, and then he would come up with some made up excuse like “that’s not good enough” and walk away.  Additionally i never claim anyone who believes otherwise “doesn’t know what they are talking about”.  I merely disagree with them.  Can’t you live with someone else disagreeing with you?

What do I do? Look at the facts and realize that the Torah is true and anyone who has done the research would realize it too.  But if he wants to live in state of denial? It’s his life.