An Actual Relevant Holocaust Point

The second I saw this news story, I was shocked to see that DK hadn’t already posted about how horrible it is. Ranting and raving about holocaustism.

To summarize,

An Italian Jewish leader told Pope Benedict Sundaythat his wartime predecessor Pius XII should have spoken out more forcefully against the Holocaust to show solidarity with Jews being led to the “ovens of Auschwitz.”

The comments, from the president of Rome’s Jewish community Riccardo Pacifici, were made during the pope’s first visit to Rome’s synagogue and were some of the bluntest ever spoken by a Jewish leader in public to a pope.

“The silence of Pius XII before the Shoah, still hurts because something should have been done,” Pacifici told the pope, using theHebrew word for the Holocaust.

There is no attempt to solicit funds, there is no attempt to open a new holocaust museum based on this, no attempt by anyone to profit based on this statement.  Now, one may contend that it is merely Pacifici to try to get attention, but he is actually raising a very valid point so that point is moot, and there is no evidence for that.

The article goes on to explain why the timing makes sense for this statement,

The visit, Benedict’s third trip to a Jewish temple since becoming pope in 2005, has deeply split Italy’s Jewish community after he took the decision last month to advance Pius XII on the path toward sainthood.

Many Jews say Pius, who reigned from 1939 to 1958, did not do enough to help Jews facing persecution byNazi Germany.

While many of the saints over the years have been terrible to the Jews from Saint Sylvester to Saint Valentine, but never in the modern era has someone been made a saint who clearly could not have been less of a saint towards fellow human beings.

This person cannot be made a saint, it will be a slap in the face of the over 6 million Jews killed in the holocaust.  Then again, some people probably wouldn’t mind that, and see it as a selling point.

Facts Shmacks

When arguing with certain people who beleive something without any real reason nothing will change their mind.  Nothing.  It doesn’t matter if they are Democrat/Republican, Frum/Secular, Jewish/Non-Jews, Male/Female, people who don’t use proof to back themselves up just cannot be convinced of the truth no matter what.

I have seen over and over again that the Kvetcher is one of these people.  He has time and time again been proved wrong on certain issues, but refuses to correct himself.

One issue DK has been harping on a lot in the last couple of months is circumcision.  Over and over again he talks about it as if it is child abuse and that the right wing nutjobs are forcing people to do it and that there are no real studies that prove that it helps anyone.  Its all the Jews fault.

Well, now there are.  TM of Jewlicious posted in a comment a study from the Wall Street Journal that says ,

The study, led by scientists from Johns Hopkins University and Makerere University in Uganda, relied on data from the same randomized control trials in Africa that already showed that circumcision cuts in half the risk of contracting human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), which can cause AIDS.

What now DK?  Im expecting some kind of rant about how the religious fundies run the WSJ, or that the study was conducted by people who had a vested interest in the result.

Either way it should be an entertaining response, albeit not an intellectual one.

So These Are the Arguments of the “Intellectuals”

Many times we have heard people who hate hassidic, yeshivish, and in general more religous people, argue that these groups are not “intellectual” and the only books they look at are the gemara so they obviously know nothing about a scholarly argument.

On that note I would like to point out what some people I have been arguing with have said after I wrecked them in an intellectual argument.

Half Sours:

You sir, are liar, liar pants on fire. And everyone knows it now. Another kiruvnik discredited. My work here is done.


Cheerer, have you considered dating a militant feminist? Because your whole, “That’s not funny!” refrain would go over quite well with those women.

DK after someone questioned his making holocaust jokes in the context of the Heeb Magazine Contest for fake holocaust stories

Liz: No matter how you want to spin it, Holocaust “jokes” are not funny.

DK:  Then don’t laugh.

And of course DK’s response to my argument based on his making a satirical posting about the OU giving a haskgacha to Zyklon B

Me: I will not be told that I “didn’t think” from someone who marginalizes the holocaust.

DK: I will not have one of my best satires marginalized by someone who connects issues that are not interrelated.

These are the people who claim there that frummies are “anti-intellectual”.

These are the people who are trying to stop kiruv.

These are the people who say religious people are stopping the advancement of the Jewish People

These are the people we fight for future of our people.

Don’t ever forget it.

Calling the Pot Black

I don’t take well to insults to my character.  Being called a liar? That has to be up there as one of the biggest insults to my character that someone can make.  Recently Kvetcher has called me a liar, and claimed I didn’t think when he mistook my intentions in one of my posts, and now (despite his own rules) says i’m “not very bright”.

So lets go through the times that DK has written with hyperbole just like I did, but I’m the bad person.

Here DK wrote,

I think for refusing to wear tefillin, the son should be publicly whipped, his apartment “donated” to a yeshiva, his secular whore of a girlfriend dragged by a mehadrin Egged-bus around town, and just for good measure, a Modern Orthodox girl should get bleached.

He was clearly trying to mock what some crazies did to some people who weren’t keeping up with their religious standard.  But by his rules we must believe he actually believes we should do those things.

Here it says,

And I am not going to shake hands with Eli anymore. Now I realize…he is just trying to cop a feel.

Well I should hope DK has not shaken Eli’s hand since that date, because then he is the liar.

On this page Kelsey posts a picture of Jim Jones who was the leader of the Jonestown cult where they killed a congressman and themselves.  So his implication is that NCSY will get you to kill yourself and members of congress.  I’m sure that wasn’t his point, but he “didnt think” when using someone like Jones to make a point.

In the same vein, here, Kvetcher has a picture of Stalin and actually has a tag saying that it is Rabbi Pinchas Stolper.  So we are to believe that Rabbi Stolper killed millions of people, ran communist Russia, helped defeat Nazi Germany after making a deal with them, and most importantly is dead.

So, were you trying to make a point with all these examples  (i have many more I just stuck with these), or did you mean for them to be taken literally? Did you think before posting them?

Fortunately, when dealing with people who hate religious people so much, you get used to the double standard.

It was Bound to Happen…

Well, it was bound to happen.  Sooner or later, despite the fact that DK applauded my disagreement with JSU, Kvetcher has attacked me.  He does this if you like kiruv, or in this case…logic, and the English language?

Let me explain.  If you look at the comment “war” that has been going on my last posting there has been a major disagreement between me, HS and DK.  The main reason I am being attacked on his page is my statement that,

rather then let it be at that (there are far worse traditions for people to attack in Judaism) people like DK attack this tradition (albeit not as the main focus of the posting) as if it also involves killing a human baby.

While there is a great more that we argue about this is what he took exception with.  He begins his post by claimingthat I did not

much success at countering my attacks on Big Kiruv.

Actually, I answered all of your attacks in the comments.  If anything, your post on your page is because you were so fed up with getting smacked around on my page that you figured you would use your own soapbox to try and make it look like you were winning.  Nice try.

My defense of the “killing babies” comment is based on the fact that I was using exaggeration to prove a point.  DK says i was lying.  I let you the public be the judge.  However, let me give you the following points to consider.

The American Heritage Dictionary says that an exaggeration is an intransitive verb which is defined as,

To make overstatements

But I think exaggeration was probably not the right word to use.  Rather I should have used Hyperbole which is defined as

a figure of speech that uses an exaggerated or extravagant statement to create a strong emotional response. As a figure of speech it is not intended to be taken literally.

Wow.  That’s amazing.  Anyone who actually read what DK wrote would know that he didnt actually say it was like killing a baby.  I  even linked to his article so that anyone could read it.  Now he may claim that people may not read it and so they wouldn’t know what he actually said.   Then my question would be: why did you use the exact same argument against someone who wanted you to speak of the different view on JSU?

Brad:  “I applaud your passion for this subject. But, you are clearly masking some aspects of the article for it to fit your agenda.”

DK: “And the article in its entirety is linked.”

Double standards? I think so. But typical DK, the facts won’t stop him.

I think that’s enough for everyone to stew on for a while.  If he continues his assault I will post a list of articles on his site that do EXACTLY what i did (here are two for a preview, one, two)  I used those two because they require no explanation.  All the others I have require an explanation  to understand.

I know I didnt hold up my end by posting the article about respecting other Jews like i said i would.  That will be soon, I had to address this first.

My View on JSU

There is an organization that runs jewish clubs throughout the country called the Jewish Student Union or JSU Kvetcher, among others, have commented that they think that JSU is a part of NCSY and a way to trick public school kids into joining NCSY without their knowledge.

Let me start by saying the following: I think NCSY is great.  I think the work they do is great.  I think that every person who is not religious and is a teen should join NCSY and that NCSY people are doing the right thing by trying to get more and more teens to join so that they can make them religious.

However, the method of using JSU to “trick” kids into joining NCSY and becoming frum is not the answer.  If JSU was merely the name of the NCSY public school arm then I would have no problem with it.  But, the way it is described on the JSU site and everywhere else I have seen it is merely considered a partner group with NCSY. Except that Rabbi Burg (national director of NCSY) is also the “dean” of JSU.  Seems kinda shady to me.

So if I want as many public school kids to join NCSY, why do I have a problem with JSU?  Because it is a form of tricking kids.  If we (religious jews) really believe that observant Judaism is the correct way for a Jew to live his or her life, then why would we need to trick people to do the right thing?  If we truely believe that the Torah (all of it, including the Gemara and Mishna) are truth, then why does NCSY need to hide behind a false entity named JSU?  If we are truely doing G-d’s work then we don’t need to trick people into following us, G-d will open their minds to the words.

Moreover, if JSU truly does allow groups of other denominations into the clubs then these kids will get exposed to USY, NFTY and other groups who’s goals are the complete opposite of NCSY’s.  If i was a member of any Jewish group and they didn’t allow me into the clubs I would throw a hissy fit.  And if I was a NCSY member and they did allow these other groups in I would throw a hissy fit.  This is not ok.

We shouldn’t and cannot be tricking kids.  The reason most people go “off’ is because they don’t have a solid foundation in Juadism.  Either they just accepted whatever they were told and never used logic and reason to reach the conclusion that religious Judaism is correct, or they were tricked with reasoning that was flawed in its conception.  We must correctly educate those teens who aren’t religious so in 10 years when they question their faith they have the backing needed to stay religious.

By tricking kids they can come to resent religious Jews or Jews altogether.  This is not ok.  If Orthodox Judaism is true, then why lie to kids when teaching it?

The Tolerance of Intolerant People

In general, the idea of freedom in the US generally says the following, “You are free to do whatever you like, as long as it doesn’t infringe on someone else’s rights”.  Sure there are exceptions to this rule, but generally I think thats a pretty good way to put it.  

There are a lot of people in this country who are tolerant of views that aren’t their own.  Then there are others who are only tolerant of views that aren’t their own, as long as they dont conflict with their own views.  David Kelsey aka The Kvetcher is one of the later types of people.  

While DK seems to be very tolerant of certain things, the is far from tolerant of anyone who’s religious views that conflict with his own.  

For Example

That whole “dash” thing is not appropriate in the least bit. Only wackos use a dash instead of an “o,” and they should probably all move to B’nai Brak and use gender segregated forms of transportation.

So because others have a respect for The creator of heaven and earth and are extra careful not to use his name in vain (one of the commandments btw) they are “wackos”.  Sure you may argue that it may not be in vain, but there are those of us who don’t want to take chances.  Moreover, its a matter of respect.  Its similar to not calling the President by his first name or even Mr. Bush/Obama you call him “Mr. President” out of respect.  More importantly do you hear me attacking him for using the “O”? Not at all.  Do it if you like!  Why? Because it doesn’t effect me!

But this is far from the only instance of intollerance again here,

Additionally, I support France’s clamp on religious fundamentalism in public schools and elsewhere. No kippahs; no hijabs or veils.

Got to love that merely wearing a religious article of clothing is fundamentalism.  I could go on and on but honestly i don’t keep track of all of DK’s comments i disagree with (because I have a job and have better things to do with my time).  But check out his past posts and you will see… tolerance only goes as far as he agrees with you.