Freedom of Religion (for those who agree with him)

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution reads as follows,

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…

Apparently according to Kvetcher when the amendment says “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” it meant only the stuff that he finds sensible.  DK, despite the fact that you find chalov yisroel products “inferior” and have “inflated costs” (which there is substantial proof to back up that claim), it does not mean that people should be allowed to make that part of their religious observance.

He claims that it is

a terrible thing for the U.S. government to be subsidizing these idle haredim who are so “pious” they can’t trust gentile farmers to be delivering cows milk.

but then in the same breath claims that

Maybe the Agudath Israel should teach its people the value of work, and stop “educating” the government on how to treat their degenerate constituency with ever-greater coddling and “sensitivity.”

If these people are not trusting non-Jews for their milk then it must be Jews making the milk.  Is that not good enough work for you?  I see, they should spend their days in front of a computer insulting people who merely express their religion differently then him, because that is good honest American work.

Moreover, just because they have different views in this case it makes them degenerates? Excuse me?  How dare you call them that merely because they believe something you don’t.  Its not like they didn’t go about this the right way.  Do you have any proof that they did something illegal or inappropriate to get the government to agree to this prevision for chalav yisroel?

This is a dangerous line to cross people.  At what point do we draw the line because we find something silly or too stringent?  Soon those “silly Jews” with their “silly specific ways of killing cows” or their “silly rules of kosher”.  While DK may be ok with this i would say all orthodox Jews (not just the silly ones with the hats) would have a problem with this.

Yet again I am forced to ask.  Merely because they want to do something different religiously then DK , and ask for governmental allowance the same as anyone else with a different religious belief, that gives them a “dark heart”?  Taking it a little far are we?  But thats our good friend David Kelsey, always on the forefront of hating other Jews.

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22 Responses to “Freedom of Religion (for those who agree with him)”

  1. DK Says:

    If the frummies want their haredi milk, they can pay for it. The tax payers should not be flipping this bill.

  2. cheerer Says:

    So should Jews who keep kosher right? Or Muslims who keep Halal?

  3. DK Says:

    So should Jews who keep kosher right? Or Muslims who keep Halal?

    Government should not be in the religion business. If a product happens to be kosher or halal, who cares? But if it costs more, and is of an inferior grade, then no, Cheerer, it shouldn’t.

  4. DK Says:

    I see, they should spend their days in front of a computer insulting people who merely express their religion differently then him, because that is good honest American work.

    What part did you miss, here, Cheerer? Would that be the, “I don’t take government subsidies part to sustain my Hashkafa” part? Would that be the part you missed?

  5. cheerer Says:

    Government should not be in the religion business. If a product happens to be kosher or halal, who cares? But if it costs more, and is of an inferior grade, then no, Cheerer, it shouldn’t.

    What if it is of a similar or identical grade? Would that change your reasoning? How about if it cost the same?

    I agree government should not be in the religion business. But what liberals fail to relize that merely allowing equal opportunities to people who have different religious beliefs is not government entanglement, it is merely treating everyone the same. This is milk we are talking about, if some people won’t drink that type would you sooner see them starve then get the governmental help (lets assume changing their beliefs is not an option)? I assume you would because they are chareidi.

    How about if all milk was treated with pig fat because it made it a higher grade, should the government ignore all religious Jews and Muslims?

    It’s a very fine line.

  6. cheerer Says:

    What part did you miss, here, Cheerer? Would that be the, “I don’t take government subsidies part to sustain my Hashkafa” part? Would that be the part you missed?

    What part did you miss here? Was it the part where I showed you contradicted your point of “they don’t work” with “they only drink milk made by Jews and pay more for it”? Would that be the part you missed? You have a habit of ignoring the actual point when you don’t have a response. BTW I dont drink chalav yisroel because of its inferior quality, but i respect the rights of those who want to.

  7. DK Says:

    It’s a very fine line.

    No, it isn’t really. These are the slippy words used by those who want to increase the victimilogy/special treatment lines when they should not be.

    How about if all milk was treated with pig fat because it made it a higher grade, should the government ignore all religious Jews and Muslims?

    Yes, or how about if all the fish with fins and scales were eradicated, and the only fish left to eat was octopus? What then, Cheerer? What then?

    BTW I dont drink chalav yisroel because of its inferior quality, but i respect the rights of those who want to

    “Respect” as in “have the government and the goy taxpayer pay for it,” right?

  8. cheerer Says:

    No, it isn’t really. These are the slippy words used by those who want to increase the victimilogy/special treatment lines when they should not be.

    No, it really is. At what point does the government ignore all religious people and say “fend for yourself”. Careful with your answer, because although you may not realize religious institutions receive millions if not billions of dollars a year for various reasons.

    es, or how about if all the fish with fins and scales were eradicated, and the only fish left to eat was octopus? What then, Cheerer? What then?

    While you make up wild examples, mine is based on fact. In Europe many countries treat their milk with pig fat to increase its longevity. But of course rather then answer my hypothetical you bring up one that is not realistic or factual at all. Oh and btw, I hate fish (of all kinds) so it wouldn’t be a problem for me.

    “Respect” as in “have the government and the goy taxpayer pay for it,” right?

    First of all Jews pay taxes too. Second of all I have seen taxpayers pay for a lot worse (bailouts just to name one) this doesn’t really bother me. While I am a firm believer in the least amount of taxes we can afford, if we are already being “legally robbed” the government might as well treat ALL people who need food stamps the same. If someone needed to buy lactade milk because of an allergy, even though its more expensive I bet you wouldn’t have a problem with that. It’s only because its people who are religious are doing it, and that pisses you off. They deserve the same rights to drink milk with the governmental help without being impinged because they believe something different.

  9. DK Says:

    If someone needed to buy lactade milk because of an allergy, even though its more expensive I bet you wouldn’t have a problem with that.

    Correct. Need me to explain the difference? Very well…food is about nutrition. People who CAN’T drink regular milk need to be accommodated. Okay? Not the same thing at all.

    Incidentally, this will spread to Muslim communities. They will find new ways to get the government to buy their own products, with their own special hechers. And they will use cholov yisroel as proof of their right to parity.

    And the groups behind these demands are quite unsavory, and not just corrupt and selfish as the frummies.

    Just you watch. This will expand. But you won’t be able to see it until it happens. Why? Because Orthodox Jews have a tough time seeing the implications beyond their daled amos. They are just too selfish and self-righteous.

    Remember this. Just you wait. But as always, you allow for no other reason to stop this sort of thing, because you foolishly think this sort of foylishtick will start and stop with the frummies.

    Just you wait.

  10. Garnel Ironheart Says:

    May I point out some facts which you’re missing?

    1) Not all Chareidim on social support are there because they refuse to work. Some are stuck in low end jobs or, through lack of education, cannot find work. Yes there are parasites in that crowd but they’re not the entire crowd.
    2) Having said that, Cholov Yisroel in America in an option, not an order. It’s great if you have it around and can afford it but there’s ample halachic support to allow the consumption of Cholov Stam if it’s not. And according to common law, chareidim on the dole are allowed to drink it. What common law? Beggars can’t be choosers, of course.

  11. Topics about Religion » Freedom of Religion (for those who agree with him) « The Cheerer Says:

    […] cheerer created an interesting post today on Freedom of Religion (for those who agree with him) « The CheererHere’s a short outlineThis entry was posted on March 23, 2009 at 10:23 pm and is filed under Kvetcher, Orthodox, freedom of religion, religion, torah. Tagged: freedom of religion, jews, judaism, observant, orthodox judaism, religion, tolerance, United States … […]

  12. DK Says:

    Some are stuck in low end jobs or, through lack of education, cannot find work.

    Because ultra-Orthodox leaders prevent them from getting a decent education, because of the same reason they don’t allow gentile supervised milking.

    Fear and disdain for the West.

    And now the taxpayer should subsidize their economically unsound contempt? No, such premium products of contempt should be paid for out of pocket.

  13. cheerer Says:

    To quote your GF,

    DK, allowing grantees to purchase cholov yisroel products does not cost the taxpayer anything extra. The WIC gives grantees what is called an EBT card, which is like a prepaid credit card. You can use it for anything that’s pre-approved on the agency’s list. If people choose to use their credit for cholov yisroel products in lieu of cans of tuna, or something, there are no ramifications whatsoever for the taxpayer. At ease.

    Now what? It’s their choice to spend more $, so back off.

  14. HalfSours Says:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

    Cheerer, please note the first clause in that sentence. Also, not subsidizing religious paraphernalia is not prohibiting the free exercise of religion — it just isn’t subsidizing it. Had this Cholov Yisroel milk cost the tax payer one extra dime, I would be all over it. But the fact is that it doesn’t, so I don’t care. If the frummies start using this as a jumping off point to demand that the government subsidize other items at the tax payers expense, I’ll be the first person to come out against it.

    Since you brought me up Cheerer, when can I expect the name and institution of that professor? I’m still waiting. I’m also waiting to hear how only wearing a black hat while davening isn’t “picking and choosing” your halahkic observance, since a double head covering is mandated by the Rambam. I’d appreciate an answer this time.

  15. cheerer Says:

    Since you are SO frum HS, you would know that we dont always paskin by the Rambam (especially because he is sephardic and I am ashkenazic), I would be curious for my own information as to where your citing the Rambam from for my own information.

    The reason I wear my black hat during davening ONLY is based on the CC. He only addresses davening and not all the time. If you notice I didn’t respond to your comment before at all, mostly because I didn’t have time, and then forgot. I’m not trying to avoid your question.

    Speaking of avoiding your question (wink) In terms of the professor I am still waiting to hear back from him but I will give you the institution, Maryland U.

  16. cheerer Says:

    To respond to your earlier comment HS,

    You obviously see what you want to see. If you look at his kippa in the “major” picture has of him, and then in the picture I gave you they are CLEARLY different objects on his head. Look at the lower portion! I know you want to make me seem less credible because it makes your argument look better, but anyone can plainly see they are two different types of head covering, one being a hat.

  17. DK Says:

    We know that wearing a black hat is d’raisa.

    As it is written,

    “And Yaakov went out from Beer Sheva”

    Yaakov would leave Beer Sheva without a black hat?

  18. cheerer Says:

    Don’t put words in my mouth. I NEVER said it was required by the torah, even remotely, in fact i’m not even sure I said it was required at all. But of course you mock, because why have an intellectual discussion when you can put words in someone’s mouth to discredit their comments. Maybe my arguments will be more on your wavelength if I make fun of the holocaust more.

  19. HalfSours Says:

    How dare you make any judgements regarding my religious observance. Simply how dare you.

    I did cite my source about the hat; Rambam. That’s what citing is. You want the specific sefer and perek? Fine. In the mean time, I’m still waiting for that professor’s name. In fact, I’m not waiting anymore. I simply don’t care. This person was more than likely made up by you. I don’t buy this “I’m waiting to hear back” line. If he’s a a professor, he won’t mind being cited by name. And if — by off chance — this fellow actually does exist, give me his name and I’ll contact him myself.

  20. cheerer Says:

    How dare you make any judgements regarding my religious observance. Simply how dare you.

    First of all I think those should be question marks not periods. Second of all, let me get this straight, I cant make judgments about your religious observance but you can about my: religious observance, honestly, character, motives and any other number of things. Now I understand the HS/DK relationship, its predicated on the love of double standards.

    I did cite my source about the hat; Rambam. That’s what citing is. You want the specific sefer and perek? Fine.

    That’s exactly what I meant. I don’t just blindly accept some random person’s view that something I have never heard is accurate. If you were quoting a blog you wouldn’t just say “Jewlicous” you would also link to the exact spot it comes from. This is how the academic and blogging world works. Just saying the book is not enough, just saying the author is not enough. Or maybe you just need to pull out your Hacker book on writing. If you are right? So be it. My argument remains that we don’t always paskin by Rambam especially because I am ashkenasic. But until then I see no reason to believe that Rambam even said such a thing, sephardic or not.

    While you may not “buy” the waiting to get back to me idea it is in fact true. It’s kind of hard to get a hold of a professor who you haven’t spoken to in a while and he doesn’t owe you anything since you are no longer a student. And if you don’t believe me? Do you think I really care? Do you think the fact that you have done nothing but attack since reaching my blog really endears yourself to me to the point where I want to help you, or care what you think? I try and make sure everyone has the right to say what they wish, but do it in a way that invokes conversation and debate, not hate. Even DK started out nicer than you when he first started commenting.

    The readers can see you obvious venom towards anything I say (and the fact that you ignore responses that prove you wrong) maybe if you try and have a intellectual discourse like a normal person without the venom everything can be more civil. Until then…I believe you and your judgments on my character can go to hell. I see no reason to help you with anything even if it proves my point.

  21. HalfSours Says:

    You sir, are liar, liar pants on fire. And everyone knows it now. Another kiruvnik discredited. My work here is done. But just for laughs:

    “First of all I think those should be question marks not periods.”
    Seriously dude? Is this what you do when you can’t attack the merit of my points? You attack my syntax? Bravo, I’m really feeling that one in my jugular.

    “Second of all, let me get this straight, I cant make judgments about your religious observance but you can about my: religious observance”,

    You brought yourself up as an example. I didn’t.

    “But until then I see no reason to believe that Rambam even said such a thing,”

    I agreed to get you the citation. But set an example for me first, and cite this professor by name. Whether I’m a student or not, no professor is abashed about being cited. That’s what they thrive upon. That’s why it’s plainly obvious that this person doesn’t exist.

    “we dont always paskin by the Rambam (especially because he is sephardic and I am ashkenazic)”

    That’s the ticket! He was Sephardic! And I’m sure that all the black hatters in Israel, New Square, Monsey, etc. are all Sephardic too, and that’s why they comply with the Rambam ruling to wear a hat all day.

    “honestly” — Yeah, since it’s plainly obvious you’re lying about this ‘professor’.

    “motives” — it isn’t exactly a secret, now is it?

    Finally, and once again, you would not have aroused my ‘venom’ had you not called me and my community “zombies”.

  22. cheerer Says:

    That’s the ticket! He was Sephardic! And I’m sure that all the black hatters in Israel, New Square, Monsey, etc. are all Sephardic too, and that’s why they comply with the Rambam ruling to wear a hat all day.

    While you may act like its crazy, happens to be there are plenty of things we dont paskin by Rambam on. For example if someone completely holds by Rambam in kashrut no Orthodox Jew would eat in their household because by his views on kashrut for the most part are NOT how we paskin.
    Also, if you recall the beginning of this conversation, I do not speak for those who wear their hats all day. I do not presume to know why they do it. As I have said previously, I wear a hat during davening (when I don’t have a tallit) and that is based on the CC. End of story.

    Finally, and once again, you would not have aroused my ‘venom’ had you not called me and my community “zombies”.

    I reiterate the same thing I said before. If you live in a community that does whatever Chabad tells them to do, what would you call them? Foolish? Stupid? Blind? I merely chose zombie. If you community doesn’t do it, then they aren’t zombies plain and simple.
    You don’t believe me about the professor, thats fine, I dont give a crap. I’m not going to play your game and try and please your wishes when obviously you are attacking for attacking sake. If my professor was the most reputable professor in the world, you would still find an issue. I’m not doing your any favors. And I;m certainly not going to cry myself to sleep because you think i’m a liar. The fact that you call me one is only proof to your double standard as I have mentioned before.
    Its the CC in the picture and I have still proved you wrong from the other picture i presented.


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