Attacking Those Who are Different

Many people are prone to attacking various Jewish traditions as “stupid” “superstitious” or “ridiculousness”.  One of these traditions (which I would like to put on the record I myself do not do) is called Capparot.  The basic idea is that one takes a chicken, waves it over their own head (not by the feet as many suspect but gently but the stomach), and it helps remove their sins.  But rather then let it be at that (there are far worse traditions for people to attack in Judaism) people like DK attack this tradition (albeit not as the main focus of the posting) as if it also involves killing a human baby.

Let me be clear.  I do not support what Face did, but using Jewish traditions such as this to make mainstream Judaism seem crazy and out of date is part of DK’s MO and that’s what bothers me.

In order to put this in perspective I am posting the famous study of the Nacirema.  For those of you who are aware of this study I ask that you not “ruin” it for everyone else who has not.  Just in case all comments will be held in moderation this week to prevent people from trying to ruin the effect of the article.

Professor Linton first brought the ritual of the Nacirema to the attention of anthropologists twenty years ago, but the culture
of this people is still very poorly understood. They are a North American group living in the territory between the Canadian Creel the Yaqui and Tarahumare of Mexico, and the Carib and Arawak of the Antilles. Little is known of their origin, although tradition states that they came from the east….

Nacirema culture is characterized by a highly developed market economy which as evolved in a rich natural habitat. While much of the people’s time is devoted to economic pursuits, a large part of the fruits of these labors and a considerable portion
of the day are spent in ritual activity. The focus of this activity is the human body, the appearance and health of which loom as a dominant concern in the ethos of the people. While such a concern is certainly not unusual, its ceremonial aspects and associated philosophy are unique.

The fundamental belief underlying the whole system appears to be that the human body is ugly and that its natural tendency is
to debility and disease. Incarcerated in such a body, man’s only hope is to avert these characteristics through the use of the
powerful influences of ritual and ceremony. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this purpose. The more
powerful individuals in the society have several shrines in their houses and, in fact, the opulence of a house is often referred to
in terms of the number of such ritual centers it possesses. Most houses are of wattle and daub construction, but the shrine rooms of the more wealthy are walled with stone. Poorer families imitate the rich by applying pottery plaques to their shrine walls.  While each family has at least one such shrine, the rituals associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and
secret. The rites are normally only discussed with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries. I was able, however, to establish sufficient rapport with the natives to examine these shrines and to have the rituals described to me.

The focal point of the shrine is a box or chest which is built into the wall. In this chest are kept the many charms and magical potions without which no native believes he could live. These preparations are secured from a variety of specialized practitioners. The most powerful of these are the medicine men, whose assistance must be rewarded with substantial gifts.  However, the medicine men do not provide the curative potions for their clients, but decide what the ingredients should be and then write them down in an ancient and secret language. This writing is understood only by the medicine men and by the herbalists who, for another gift, provide the required charm.

The charm is not disposed of after it has served its purpose, but is placed in the charmbox of the household shrine. As these
magical materials are specific for certain ills, and the real or imagined maladies of the people are many, the charm-box is usually full to overflowing. The magical packets are so numerous that people forget what their purposes were and fear to use them again. While the natives are very vague on this point, we can only assume that the idea in retaining all the old magical materials is that their presence in the charm-box, before which the body rituals are conducted, will in some way protect the worshipper.

Beneath the charm-box is a small font. Each day every member of the family, in succession, enters the shrine room, bows
his head before the charm-box, mingles different sorts of holy water in the font, and proceeds with a brief rite of ablution.
The holy waters are secured from the Water Temple of the community, where the priests conduct elaborate ceremonies to
make the liquid ritually pure.

In the hierarchy of magical practitioners, and below the medicine men in prestige, are specialists whose designation is best translated “holy-mouth-men.” The Nacirema have an almost pathological horror of and fascination with the mouth, the condition of which is believed to have a supernatural influence on all social relationships. Were it not for the rituals of the
mouth, they believe that their teeth would fall out, their gums bleed, their jaws shrink, their friends desert them, and their lovers
reject them. They also believe that a strong relationship exists between oral and moral characteristics. For example, there is a ritual ablution of the mouth for children which is supposed to improve their moral fiber.

The daily body ritual performed by everyone includes a mouth-rite. Despite the fact that these people are so punctilious about care of the mouth, this rite involves a practice which strikes the uninitiated stranger as revolting. It was reported to me that the ritual consists of inserting a small bundle of hog hairs into the mouth, along with certain magical powders, and then moving the bundle in a highly formalized series of gestures.

In addition to the private mouth-rite, the people seek out a holy-mouth-man once or twice a year. These practitioners
have an impressive set of paraphernalia, consisting of a variety of augers, awls, probes, and prods. The use of these objects in the exorcism of the evils of the mouth involves almost unbelievable ritual torture of the client. The holy-mouth-man open the clients mouth and, using the above mentioned tools, enlarges any holes which decay may have created in the teeth. Magical materials are put into these holes. If there age no naturally occurring holes in the teeth, large sections of one or more teeth are gouged out so that the supernatural substance can be applied. In the client’s view, the purpose of these ministrations is to arrest decay and to draw friends. The extremely sacred and traditional character of the rite is evident in the fact that the natives return to the holy–mouth-men year after year, despite the fact  that their teeth continue to decay.

It is to be hoped that, when a thorough  study of the Nacirema is made, there will  be careful inquiry into the personality  structure of these people. One has but to  watch the gleam in the eye of a holy-  mouth-man, as he jabs an awl into an  exposed nerve, to suspect that a certain  amount of sadism is involved. If this can be  established, a very interesting pattern  emerges, for most of the population shows  definite masochistic tendencies. It was to  these that Professor Linton referred in discussing a distinctive part of the daily  body ritual which is performed only by  men. This part of the rite involves scraping  and lacerating the surface of the face with a  sharp instrument. Special women’s rites are  performed only four times during each  lunar month, but what they lack in  frequency is made up in barbarity. As part  of this ceremony, women bake their heads  in small ovens for about an hour. The  theoretically interesting point is that what  seems to be a preponderantly masochistic  people have developed sadistic specialists.

The medicine men have an imposing  temple, or latipso, in every community of  any size. The more elaborate ceremonies  required to treat very sick patients can only  be performed at this temple. These ceremonies involve not only the thaumaturge  but a permanent group of vestal maidens  who move sedately about the temple  chambers in distinctive costume and head-  dress.

The latipso ceremonies are so harsh that  it is phenomenal that a fair proportion of  the really sick natives who enter the temple The concept of culture  ever recover. Small children whose indoctrination is still incomplete have been  known to resist attempts to take them to  the temple because “that is where you go to  die.” Despite this fact, sick adults are not  only willing but eager to undergo the  protracted ritual purification, if they can  afford to do so. No matter how ill the  supplicant or how grave the emergency, the  guardians of many temples will not admit a  client if he cannot give a rich gift to the  custodian. Even after one has gained admission and survived the ceremonies, the  guardians will not permit the neophyte to  leave until he makes still another gift.

The supplicant entering the temple is  first stripped of all his or her clothes. In  everyday life the Nacirema avoids exposure  of his body and its natural functions.  Bathing and excretory acts are performed  only in the secrecy of the household shrine,  where they are ritualized as part of the  body-rites. Psychological shock results  from the fact that body secrecy is suddenly  lost upon entry into the latipso. A man,  whose own wife has never seen him in an  excretory act, suddenly finds himself naked  and assisted by a vestal maiden while he  performs his natural functions into a sacred  vessel. This sort of ceremonial treatment is  necessitated by the fact that the excreta are  used by a diviner to ascertain the course  and nature of the client’s sickness. Female  clients, on the other hand, find their naked  bodies are subjected to the scrutiny,  manipulation and prodding of the medicine  men.

Few supplicants in the temple are well  enough to do anything but lie on their  hard  beds. The daily ceremonies, like the rites of  the holy-mouth-men, involve discomfort  and torture. With ritual precision, the  vestals awaken their miserable charges each  dawn and roll them about on their beds of  pain while performing ablutions, in the  formal movements of which the maidens are highly trained. At other times they  insert magic wands in the supplicant’s  mouth or force him to eat substances which  are supposed to be healing. From time to  time the medicine men come to their clients  and jab magically treated needles into their  flesh. The fact that these temple ceremonies  may not cure, and may even kill the  neophyte, in no way decreases the people’s  faith in the medicine men.

There remains one other kind of  practitioner, known as a “listener.” This  witchdoctor has the power to exorcise the  devils that lodge in the heads of people who  have been bewitched. The Nacirema  believe that parents bewitch their own  children. Mothers are particularly suspected of putting a curse on children while  teaching them the secret body rituals. The  counter-magic of the witchdoctor is unusual in its lack of ritual. The patient simply tells the “listener” all his troubles and  fears, beginning with the earliest difficulties  he can remember. The memory displayed  by the Nacirerna in these exorcism sessions  is truly remarkable. It is not uncommon for  the patient to bemoan the rejection he felt  upon being weaned as a babe, and a few  individuals even see their troubles going  back to the traumatic effects of their own  birth.

In conclusion, mention must be made of  certain practices which have their base in  native esthetics but which depend upon the  pervasive aversion to the natural body and  its functions. There are ritual fasts to make  fat people thin and ceremonial feasts to  make thin people fat. Still other rites are  used to make women’s breasts larger if they  are small, and smaller if they are large.  General dissatisfaction with breast shape is symbolized in the fact that the ideal form is virtually outside the range of human   variation. A few women afflicted with almost inhuman hyper-mamrnary development are so idolized that they make a   handsome living by simply going from village to village and permitting the natives to stare at them for a fee.

Reference has already been made to the   fact that excretory functions are ritualized,   routinized, and relegated to secrecy. Natural reproductive functions are similarly distorted. Intercourse is taboo as a topic and scheduled as an act. Efforts are made to   avoid pregnancy by the use of magical   materials or by limiting intercourse to certain phases of the moon. Conception is   actually very infrequent. When pregnant, women dress so as to hide their condition.  Parturition takes place in secret, without   friends or relatives to assist, and the majority of women do not nurse their infants.

Our review of the ritual life of the Nacirema has certainly shown them to be a   magic-ridden people. It is hard to un-   derstand how they have managed to exist   so long under the burdens which they have   imposed upon themselves. But even such   exotic customs as these take on real   meaning when they are viewed with the insight provided by Malinowski when he   wrote:

“Looking from far and above, from our  high places of safety in the developed civilization, it is easy to see all the crudity and irrelevance of magic. But without its power and guidance early man could not   have mastered his practical difficulties as he has done, nor could man have advanced to the higher stages of civilization.”

What is your reaction to this strange culture’s behaviors?  Stranger then what is done in Judaism? About the same? Discuss…

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24 Responses to “Attacking Those Who are Different”

  1. DK Says:

    I never compared it to killing a baby. That is nonsense.

    “face” is not the same person as “fran/jon/shlomo/bunch of other aliases.” The latter person is not a Chabadnik, but an NCSY person who is ringleader of the censorship on Wikipedia on NCSY, the JSU, and…Ohr Somayach.

    Why Ohr Somayach? For the same reason that Steve Brizel consistently defends that fundie pit of misery., Because NCSY sends kids there — and has used the “cultural” JSU to help achieve that, and boasted it about it to its members.

  2. cheerer Says:

    I never compared it to killing a baby. That is nonsense.

    I was exaggerating for effect. Its a common writers tool to drive home the point.

  3. DK Says:

    Shlugging kapores is hardly “mainstream Judaism.” Most Jews do not actually believe that waving a chicken around your head absolves you of anything. This is for the mystic radicals who rush to eat something their rebbe bit into.

  4. cheerer Says:

    You have been out of mainstream Judaism too long. While most Jews do not actually believe in it, a large number of them do perform the ritual anyway as part of tradition. Moreover most sephardic Jews do the ceremony and believe in it. You did not see me call it a “law” or “halacha” but rather tradition. It is a tradition that you are making fun of. And it is surely a slap to the sephardic communities that more often then not perform and believe in the tradition.

  5. DK Says:

    My half-Mizrahi girlfriend says, “Mizrahi Jews will do anything Chabad tells them to do if they have infiltrated their neighborhood.”

    Once again, cheerer, it isn’t really about minhag, but rather, infestation.

  6. cheerer Says:

    My half-Mizrahi girlfriend says, “Mizrahi Jews will do anything Chabad tells them to do if they have infiltrated their neighborhood.”

    It is far from my, or chabads fault that half of your GF and the rest of Mitzrahi jews are zombies and refuse to think for themselves. BTW your “half mizrahi gf” is just flat out wrong. Maybe she sees it that way because she disagrees with them (typical fight of people who cant argue “oh they just listen to anything they are told. They cant possibly be right”)

    Once again, cheerer, it isn’t really about minhag, but rather, infestation.

    Stop using that word. Its just not ok. Infestation is way to reminiscent of what people used to say about our people 60 years ago. Sure, you will claim I am using “holocaustism” but the fact is, its true. But until then I see words such as “infestation” as hate word and therefore will be redacted from here on in.
    People are free to throw these people out, but they dont because they do good work. Just because you disagree doesn’t mean they are bugs to be crushed. From that word (and other you use all the time) it is as if one should be dead rather then frum. THEY ARE JEWS FOR G-D’S SAKE! . I know you would rather them be not-jewish then hareidi but dead? My next posting will be on this topic.

  7. HalfSours Says:

    “It is far from my, or chabads fault that half of your GF and the rest of Mitzrahi jews are zombies and refuse to think for themselves.”

    Dude, I was being sardonic. Mizrachi Jews adopt chabad customs — sometimes easier than Ashkenazi Jews — because Chabad appeals to their appetite for the mysticism that the West lacks. You think it is because Mizrachi Jews are zombies? Then perhaps it would be for the common good if Chabad and other kiruv organizations* would stop engaging us.

    “BTW your “half mizrahi gf” is just flat out wrong.”

    Well, I’m half zombie, dickhead. I can’t possibly be expected to function on the intellectual medgrega you’re so clearly at. Especially without one of those nifty Borsalino hats to wear in the middle of July. Mizrachi zombies don’t have a culture that rewards individualism — like Chabad’s.

    *Like Aish, which has recently hired a slough of Mizrachi staff for a Sephardic initiative

  8. cheerer Says:

    HS – FIrst of all: am i the only one who didn’t know HS and DK are dating? I feel left out of the loop on this one!

    Dude, I was being sardonic. Mizrachi Jews adopt chabad customs — sometimes easier than Ashkenazi Jews — because Chabad appeals to their appetite for the mysticism that the West lacks. You think it is because Mizrachi Jews are zombies? Then perhaps it would be for the common good if Chabad and other kiruv organizations* would stop engaging us.

    I had no way to know your context, and if you read the way your bf played your comments he made it seem like they are zombies and just listen to whatever chabad says. Don’t blame me because your bf used your comments to prove a point which wasn’t their intention. The fact taht they adopt chabadnic customs has NOTHING to do with this conversation and therefore made no sense in the comment by DK. My response was merely geared towards how he made your comments seem.

    Well, I’m half zombie, dickhead. I can’t possibly be expected to function on the intellectual medgrega you’re so clearly at. Especially without one of those nifty Borsalino hats to wear in the middle of July. Mizrachi zombies don’t have a culture that rewards individualism — like Chabad’s.

    This is your warning HS. No personal attacks. You can attack but not me personally. If you make another personal attack you will be moderated in your comments. Just ask your BF he uses the same system.

    The fact is i know plenty of mizrachi people and they dont do whatever chabad tells them. Thats why i said you are flat wrong.
    In terms of the zombie comment…i reiterate it has to do with the context that DK posted it in. If that wasn’t the context you were saying it in, i apologize. Somehow I bet DK wont do the same for misusing your comments.

    I also love the attacks on people who wear hats in the middle of July. Its stupid right? Like wearing 3 layers and long pants in july? Somehow i don’t hear you mocking MLB because every team does it. But of course because its religion its a different standard…I see.

  9. HalfSours Says:

    “No personal attacks.”

    Referring to myself and my people as “zombies”, is what I would call a personal attack. I merely responded in kind. And added a “dickhead” too.

    Baseball players subject themselves to that crap because it is professional gear they get paid to wear. You do it because the Rebbe Shnotzenhaurplagerson told you to. I’m not mistaking that for my business. If you want to continue to dress as you did two-hundred years ago during the Polish winter, feel free. It doesn’t exactly bode well for your stamp of intellectual superiority over Mizrachim though — which whether you misinterpreted my comment or not, you did make.

  10. cheerer Says:

    Referring to myself and my people as “zombies”, is what I would call a personal attack. I merely responded in kind.

    I wasn’t refering you specifically, unless you also do whatever chabadnics tell you to do, i was refering to a group of people and again the other word is the problem.

    Baseball players subject themselves to that crap because it is professional gear they get paid to wear. You do it because the Rebbe Shnotzenhaurplagerson told you to.

    I actually do it because of the Chafetz Chaim, pretty big rabbi no? It doesn’t have to be a black hat, it can be any kind of double head covering, and I merely figured if im going to do something i’m going to do it right. Not because the “black hat” is the right way, but because borsolinos are the best hats in general. Just ask your local italian mafia member.

    It doesn’t exactly bode well for your stamp of intellectual superiority over Mizrachim

    I NEVER claimed I was better then them in any way, i merely attacked those who do stuff “just because chabad tells them”. In fact I defended them from YOUR implication that it is all they do. Stop putting words in my mouth.

  11. When all else fails, lie — The Kvetcher Says:

    […] To wit: But rather then let it be at that (there are far worse traditions for people to attack in Judaism) people like DK attack this tradition (albeit not as the main focus of the posting) as if it also involves killing a human baby. […]

  12. HalfSours Says:

    I actually do it because of the Chafetz Chaim, pretty big rabbi no?

    Moshe Rebbenu was a bigger rabbi. And he didn’t wear a black hat.

    Incidentally, I don’t recall seeing a black hat in paintings of the Chafetz Chaim either. Maybe he was smart enough to say “screw it” in the summer time.

  13. cheerer Says:

    Moshe Rebbenu was a bigger rabbi. And he didn’t wear a black hat.

    Probably not, however, do you know for a fact that he didn’t wear a double head covering? Of course you don’t because none of us do. But i’ll place my money on the tradition of wearing a double head covering against your belief that he didn’t. You think rabbis invented the hats for the hell of it? Did the rosh yeshiva own a hat store? What benefit do they get from adding this?

    Incidentally, I don’t recall seeing a black hat in paintings of the Chafetz Chaim either.

    I’ve never seen one of him wearing underwear or tephilin, or hearing the shofar, or getting a bris…so none of that must have happened either. In fact, there is a major question if the offical CC picture is actually him or not.

    Maybe he was smart enough to say “screw it” in the summer time.

    Let me try and understand your logic here. He wrote in his book that people should wear a double head covering, just to mess with people? Or he did it but only sometimes and laughed at everyone who did it all year round? And no one called him on it?

    Judaism is totally like that. “Keep kosher, unless its the winter and you are really cold and there is some great pig stew.” or “Wear tephilin unless its the summer and its really hot then you dont have to.” Great logic.
    That’s almost as good as those people who say that the torah expired. I don’t remember G-d saying, “You shall keep this book, oh except starting on June 23 1876, then everything is fair game”

  14. HalfSours Says:

    “Probably not, however, do you know for a fact that he didn’t wear a double head covering?”

    Compelling point. Really.

    “I’ve never seen one of him wearing underwear or tephilin, or hearing the shofar, or getting a bris…so none of that must have happened either.”

    Here’s the thing: he either wore a hat, or he didn’t. He’s wearing a kippah. One doesn’t wear tefilin all the time, nor any of the other ridiculous things you (for reasons beyond my fathom) seem to think are relevant. Why would he decline to be portrayed as he was, all day, and every day?

    “In fact, there is a major question if the offical CC picture is actually him or not. ”

    Very convenient theory… for those who need to explain away a black hat.

    “Let me try and understand your logic here. He wrote in his book that people should wear a double head covering, just to mess with people?”

    Maybe you shouldn’t take everything every rabbi writes so seriously. Maybe even they know better than that.

    “Judaism is totally like that. “Keep kosher, unless its the winter and you are really cold and there is some great pig stew.” or “Wear tephilin unless its the summer and its really hot then you dont have to.” Great logic.”

    I always saw the classic Jewish texts (tanakh, Mishnah, some Talmud) as being supremely logical. It’s Hareidi meatheads who don’t know when to draw the line, read things as they sometimes are (humor, exercises in logic not meant for actual practice, etc.) and act logically. I can’t fathom why G*d would command every Jewish man to wear the same fucking hat. Unless he has a special fondness for the Borsalino family.

  15. HalfSours Says:

    Oh, and also, bloggers who only publish comments once they’ve crafted a response are intellectually dishonest. But then again, people who have qualms about intellectual honesty don’t go into your line of work, I suppose.

  16. cheerer Says:

    Oh, and also, bloggers who only publish comments once they’ve crafted a response are intellectually dishonest. But then again, people who have qualms about intellectual honesty don’t go into your line of work, I suppose.

    Typical of the people who hate religion: attack someone before you know all the facts. If you had actually been reading my blog you would note in my posting called “Attacking Those Who are Different” I changed the commenting policy till Monday. As I said there,

    In order to put this in perspective I am posting the famous study of the Nacirema. For those of you who are aware of this study I ask that you not “ruin” it for everyone else who has not. Just in case all comments will be held in moderation this week to prevent people from trying to ruin the effect of the article.

    My rules for commenting are generally that your first comment is held for moderation but then once you are approved they aren’t. However, in order to preserve the impact of the Nacirema article I am holding all comments in moderation. Unfortunately I cannot do it with only one posting (if you know of a way, tell me and I will do it, I dont like this anymore than you do). However, when I do approve comments it is once I go back to the site and see they have been made. In that case I have the time to craft a response. It is not some “intellectual dishonesty”. in fact it is just the opposite. I am trying to protect the impact of the posting from those who are intellectually dishonest.

    So before you attack someone, and particularly their honestly maybe you should get all your facts first. And it happens to work out that I don’t have time to respond to your other comment right now, but I approved it anyway. So stop attacking me and maybe read a little before you fly off the handle.

  17. cheerer Says:

    Half Sours –

    Here’s the thing: he either wore a hat, or he didn’t. He’s wearing a kippah. One doesn’t wear tefilin all the time, nor any of the other ridiculous things you (for reasons beyond my fathom) seem to think are relevant. Why would he decline to be portrayed as he was, all day, and every day?

    I think there may be some confusion here. Personally I only wear a hat when I daven. So 99% of the pictures of me I do not have a hat on. The pictures of the “CC” I have seen are not him davening so maybe he is the same way. In fact when he talks about people wearing a double head covering it is only in reference to davening.

    Very convenient theory… for those who need to explain away a black hat.

    No, its just a fact. Even if he was wearing a hat there is a major question if it is him or not.

    Maybe you shouldn’t take everything every rabbi writes so seriously. Maybe even they know better than that.

    So he wrote it so people would ignore him? Or what? I don’t understand. Why would he write it? As a practical joke? Now who is making excuses?

    I always saw the classic Jewish texts (tanakh, Mishnah, some Talmud) as being supremely logical. It’s Hareidi meatheads who don’t know when to draw the line, read things as they sometimes are (humor, exercises in logic not meant for actual practice, etc.) and act logically. I can’t fathom why G*d would command every Jewish man to wear the same fucking hat. Unless he has a special fondness for the Borsalino family.

    I obviously don’t read what I write, except if you disagree. As I said before, G-d (nor any halachic source) ever said it had to be a black hat. That hat has merely turned into the mainstream I hat. Personally I have seen plenty of people with Stetson, straw hats, and even cowboy hats in Texas. The reason people wear Borsalino (including myself) is because it is one of the best hats in the world. When doing a mitzvah i want to do it in the best way. As I said before, Borsalino’s are one of the best hats made, why do you think mobsters wore them? It wasn’t merely because it was from Italy but also because of the quality. People don’t have to wear the same hat, they merely do because it is one of best around, but as I have said many people don’t especially in the south.

  18. HalfSours Says:

    “No, its just a fact. Even if he was wearing a hat there is a major question if it is him or not.”

    Is it a fact, or is it a question? Who has posed this ‘major question’, and what specifically inspired their doubt? Don’t neglect to address these question in your response please.

    “Typical of the people who hate religion: attack someone before you know all the facts. If you had actually been reading my blog you would note in my posting called “Attacking Those Who are Different” I changed the commenting policy till Monday.”

    What about my comment made you believe that I hate religion, or even traditional Judaism? I have a distaste for Hareidism. Can you really not see the difference? Or are we playing that game of pretend where Judaism is and always was tantamount to Hareidism?

    I didn’t read your post because the title turned me off. Even so, it seems that you are, in fact, posting comments — just after you’ve already rebutted them. Which, in my view, is intellectually dishonest. If you disagree, it’s your blog. Filter ideas as you see fit.

    “People don’t have to wear the same hat, they merely do because it is one of best around”

    Effectively, they do. Try walking into a Hareidi yeshiva or shul without a black hat on. Or wear a kippah without a seret. Same thing. The ridiculous super-impositions are socially enforced. Which was exactly my initial point.

    “So before you attack someone…[and] fly off the handle…”

    You merited this reaction when you called me and my community “zombies”. I

  19. cheerer Says:

    Is it a fact, or is it a question? Who has posed this ‘major question’, and what specifically inspired their doubt? Don’t neglect to address these question in your response please.

    I’m not going to lie, or forget or purposefully ignore things to make myself look right. Honestly, I heard from someone I trust who is a very reliable source (college professor at a secular college) that it’s not actually him. Its really that simple. I’m not going to make up a non-existent source or claim it was in a book I cant remember. Believe him or not, I don’t care.

    What about my comment made you believe that I hate religion, or even traditional Judaism?

    Dating DK? Pretty big sign that someone either hates religious Judaism or doesn’t care if their children do.

    I didn’t read your post because the title turned me off. Even so, it seems that you are, in fact, posting comments — just after you’ve already rebutted them. Which, in my view, is intellectually dishonest. If you disagree, it’s your blog. Filter ideas as you see fit.

    So its my fault you didn’t read the post that made my comment policy change veryclear. If you notice (which sure you either did and “forgot” or didn’t notice) at one point today I had no time to respond to comments but I still saw that there were new ones (specifically from your BF DK) which i approved and didn’t get back to respond for many hours later.
    But I have a job. I need to make a living. I also have a life. I cant spent my entire day at my blog unlike some other people. So when I see there is a comment and it doesn’t ruin the Nacarima posting, I approve it. If I have time to respond I do, but I don’t, I respond later. Most of the time when I have time to check the blog I have time to respond so it works out. But of course yuou will ignore that fact and call me dishonest because it suits you.
    My blog has been around a little bit. Up until this week I NEVER waited till I could comment to approve a post unless it was someone’s first post (helps filter spam). But of course you will ignore that. Because it suits you. You and DK are made for each other: ignore the facts when they don’t suit you.

    Try walking into a Hareidi yeshiva or shul without a black hat on. Or wear a kippah without a seret. Same thing. The ridiculous super-impositions are socially enforced. Which was exactly my initial point.

    Personally I am not Hareidi, but I wear a hat. I have a TV (gasp), with cable. As shocking as this may be, not everyone is exactly alike in the religious world, even us black hatters. Does The Lakewood Yeshiva count as a Hareidi yeshiva? How about Yeshivat Chafetz Chaim? In which case I have walked around there with a leather kippa, a knitted kipa (two different times) and no black hat. I freaking walked around in jeans. No one said anything to me, in fact I spent many days there without one comment. You know why? Because you are discriminating. You assume everyone is alike, and you are just flat out wrong. YOU are the one who is placing people into a specific type. YOU are the one who isn’t open minded.

    You merited this reaction when you called me and my community “zombies”

    When you “listen to whatever Chabad says” without questioning it? What would you call that? How is that any different from the many frummies you attack who listen to their rabayim?
    And if you don’t do that, then you aren’t zombies (unless you are also undead and eat brains). So I wasn’t referring to you, and you should be pissed at your BF for misapplying your comment. Its that simple

  20. HalfSours Says:

    “Honestly, I heard from someone I trust who is a very reliable source (college professor at a secular college) that it’s not actually him.”

    How did I anticipate that I wouldn’t get a real answer? He’s a college professor, eh? Then he won’t mind being cited by name. Otherwise, I think I’d be justified in my assumption that this is a crock of bullshit, either manufactured by you, or some other frummer who needed to explain away a hat.

    “So I wasn’t referring to you, and you should be pissed at your BF for misapplying your comment.”

    “Dating DK? Pretty big sign that someone either hates religious Judaism or doesn’t care if their children do.”

    DK does hate ‘religious Judaism’ as you define it. Again, hating Hareidi Judaism is a far cry from hating religion. You seem to have great difficulty digesting this.

    He didn’t misapply my comment. You just have no sense of humor. A good sense of humor, by the way, includes knowing when to draw the line.

  21. cheerer Says:

    I think I’d be justified in my assumption that this is a crock of bullshit, either manufactured by you, or some other frummer who needed to explain away a hat.

    Of course. Why would you ever believe me? There is no reason you should, after all I disagreed with DK I MUST BE DESTROYED. However, you are guilty of the same problem you accused me of. You failed to address my point that I don’t see any pictures of the CC davening. That is when I wear my hat, and that is when he said in his sefer that one should wear the double head covering. Lucky for you i found one, and (gasp) he is wearing a hat! I’m sure you will argue that it’s not him and because of my professor, i may agree with you. But at this point it is more likely that he wore one during davening (as I said) then not since at least I produced a picture that claims it is him davening. While you have produced…oh right just a curse laden diatribe.

    He didn’t misapply my comment. You just have no sense of humor. A good sense of humor, by the way, includes knowing when to draw the line.

    Somehow I cannot find any humor in the way he applied it. Maybe I need to date someone who uses people like Jim Jones and Joseph Stalin (murderers), and Zyklon B as part of his jokes. Murdering innocent people is always a funny topic.

  22. HalfSours Says:

    “Somehow I cannot find any humor in the way he applied it. Maybe I need to date someone who uses people like Jim Jones and Joseph Stalin (murderers), and Zyklon B as part of his jokes. Murdering innocent people is always a funny topic.”

    I excoriated DK for that. He is irrelevant this discussion. We are two different people.

    That is not a black hat. That is an old chassidic-style kippah. Who do you think you’re kidding? He is wearing the same one in the painted portraits of him. I’m not going to assert whether he’s davening in that photo or not. It looks to me like he’s studying (despite wearing tefilin), but I won’t speculate. The halacha about black hats, as I understand, comes from Rambam; He thought that only double head-cover was appropriate reverence for the shechina, and thus you should wear one in the day-to-day life. That’s the way most charedim in Israel go around. And then the striemels are a whole other silly issue. If you only wear one while davening, how do you reconcile that with the Rambam ruling? Isn’t that picking and choosing?

    Finally I didn’t accuse you of not addressing my point. I called you on dodging a question. Bringing this photo to me, and gleefully and asserting that that’s a black hat, still doesn’t do it. What was the name of that professor again, and what is his home institution? Maybe he can help us parse out this elusive black hat.

  23. DK Says:

    Somehow I cannot find any humor in the way he applied it. Maybe I need to date someone who uses people like Jim Jones and Joseph Stalin (murderers), and Zyklon B as part of his jokes.

    Cheerer, have you considered dating a militant feminist? Because your whole, “That’s not funny!” refrain would go over quite well with those women.

  24. Please don’t “destroy” pro-Kiruv bloggers on my behalf — The Kvetcher Says:

    […] Cheerer writes, Why would you ever believe me? There is no reason you should, after all I disagreed with DK I […]


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