RE: Two Mosholim Part One

A blogger (who has changed his name over and over again because he keeps changing his mind about how he feels about Observant Judaism) recently wrote a post that offers two examples and asks what we (the reader) would do.  Disclaimer: the examples are obviously written in such a way to beg a specific answer.  When doing so he distorts things, makes things into facts that are theories, and ignores things that have been proved, as I will show.  Lets just do the first one today:

Your friend tells you that a super natural being exists. You check up on that, and it turns out nobody has ever seen this being, or has any good evidence that the being exists. The whole thing seems to be entirely fantasy.

Obviously I (in this example) haven’t done a good job checking up on it.  Not only is there a document that is attested to be true at the time by over 2 million people, but this book has an unbroken chain since that time with little to no questioning of differences in the existing text since (besides additions).  It is little to no different from when we are told there was a civil war, or a holy roman empire or even a holocaust…eye witness testimony.  Somehow the Torah is no longer an eyewitness testimony! If we find a Native American document from the exact same time talking about an event no one will question that accuracy of it.

THAT answer is just for starters…but lets more on

When you tell your friend this, he has a conniption fit, and tells you that nobody has ever proven that this being does not exist either.

That is an argument made by people who don’t really believe in G-d and merely want to believe in G-d.  No rational G-d fearing Jew who is worth his weight in gold actually uses that argument.

You think your friend is nuts. But then your friend tell you that not only does this being exist, but it wrote a book, and he shows you the book. You look at the book, and it looks like a typical collection of far fetched miracle tales, and out of date laws and moral values, very similar to many other ancient books.

Except for a great number of distinctions. 1) This is the ONLY book that claims that G-d appeared to more than 1 person at a time, certainly the only one that claims a revelation to 2 million people.  2) I love how liberals all believe that moral values can be out of date.  If they are moral values they should be a constant 3) This “typical collection of far fetched miracles” is only typical because all the other major western religions based their stories off of ours.  Its not typical if everyone stole our version!

Certainly there’s nothing about the book which would make you think a super natural being wrote it.

This is a HUGE fight to be had but let me take a stab at one example.  According to World Wildlife Fund report mentioned in Discovery magazine more than 1,068 new species have been discovered since 1997.  Imagine how many have been discovered since the giving of the Torah over 2,500 years ago.  Especially since at that time we had not discovered 98% of the world including entire continents.

In the Torah it specifically lists by name all the animals that have split hooves but don’t chew their cud, and chew their cud but don’t have split hooves.  BY NAME.  If you are a human and are writing a book you aren’t stupid enough to mention then by name! You give the rule and move on! Don’t be stupid enough, especially with 98% of the world undiscovered, to give specific names!  And yet, since the giving of the Torah not one, NOT ONE animal has been discovered beyond the list given in the Torah that has one and not the other. That is way beyond coincidence or good luck.  That’s divine.

In fact the book itself doesn’t even claim that.

Wrong.  Just flat out wrong.  Over and over it says “the rules that I have given you” the book that “I wrote”.  Anyone you speak to who knows anything will tell you that it isn’t talking about Moshe (especially when it says this book that i gave to Moses.)  Or maybe he had multiple personalities.

Anyways, you take the book to your local university for fact checking and it turns out half the book is completely impossible and much of it is plain wrong.

I recall when people say killing 6 million people is impossible.  I remember that West Point doesn’t study any of the Israeli military victories in their military history class because its impossible to win those wars.  I could go on but I wont.  The very idea behind a miracle is that it’s impossible.  And just plain wrong?  I don’t see any sources for this..try listing one and we can go from there.

Also, linguistic scholars show you that the book was written in different dialects corresponding to different time periods, and they also point out numerous contradictions, omissions, and obvious signs of tampering.

If you are talking about Tanach then yeah of course they were written at different times! It says that!  Omissions? All of a sudden there is a missing book? Like some kind of Oral Torah that would explain the omissions?  Again we agree.  Obvious signs of tampering? See above while I wait for a source that says there is tampering because there is no one I ever heard who says that, even the people who doubt the Torah

You tell this to your friend but he absolutely insists that a super natural being wrote almost every word of it, and anyone who says otherwise just doesn’t know what they are talking about. You think your friend is really nuts. Then he tells you that you must adhere to all the laws in the book, including some very strange ones, and if you don’t, the super natural being will punish you in some way. What do you do?

Well if someone told this to me, i would argue the same way I have, and then he would come up with some made up excuse like “that’s not good enough” and walk away.  Additionally i never claim anyone who believes otherwise “doesn’t know what they are talking about”.  I merely disagree with them.  Can’t you live with someone else disagreeing with you?

What do I do? Look at the facts and realize that the Torah is true and anyone who has done the research would realize it too.  But if he wants to live in state of denial? It’s his life.

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18 Responses to “RE: Two Mosholim Part One”

  1. leftcoastlibrul Says:

    Interesting. Couple observations.

    1. Not all “liberals” are atheists, not all atheists are liberals, and neither believe that all moral values can be out of date. Many atheists, regardless of their political leanings, believe that morals can be situational. For example: while it is certainly wrong to kill, to accidentally cause someone’s death while defending one’s own life is generally seen to be (if not blameless) at least a defensible position.

    2. “That’s not good enough” is not a made up reason, and usually not the reason used. “There is not enough proof to confirm nor deny” is most frequently the response given. Most certainly it can be disagreed with. That’s not in dispute. It isn’t about whether or not there is agreement, it’s about what can be proven. And no, the Torah is not an historical document and “anyone who has done the research” (which, yes, I have) would not necessarily realize it. That’s called a No True Scotsman Fallacy, and it essentially states that no one who TRULY does this or that (such as reads a book) can think otherwise. Of course they can, and asserting such is hardly “living in denail.”

    There are many, MANY inconsistencies within the Torah, just as there are within the Bible. One of the top of my head? Certainly. Esther was not married to Xerxes I. She was married to his son, Artaxerxes. The Torah, like any other document, is open to being questioned. Doing so is not discrimination; it’s the same rigorous testing to which any other historical document is subjected. It should be shown more lenience just because people believe in it? No. If it’s factual, then you shouldn’t have any issue with it being tested for historical accuracy.

    Now, as to Moses’ testimony: There was a wonderful special on the History channel documenting the Exodus. Apparently there is a portion of the Red Sea which recedes at a certain time every night. Let us remember that Moses was not only a spiritual leader, but a general as well. He was well versed in terrain and tactics. It wasn’t a miracle of God that parted the Red Sea. It was the tides. The Israelites got through in time, those chasing them did not. There’s really not alot within the Torah that could not be explained using a little logic and science. Unless, of course, you are blindly insistent on your ideology, in which case you will likely continue to stubbornly believe that the Torah used absolutely no hyperbole whatsoever, and God actually sent an angry bear to kill a bunch of boys for making fun of an old man’s beard.

    Now, I’m not naive enough to think you’d publish my comment; most people who are ideologically insistent aren’t ordinarily open to dissent. Then again…you may prove me wrong. Some see uncertainty as dangerous. I see it as honest.

  2. cheerer Says:

    As you say, Interesting but a couple of my observations:

    Not all “liberals” are atheists, not all atheists are liberals, and neither believe that all moral values can be out of date.

    True, however morals have to be based on something. Morality is always relative unless you have a system of morality that doesn’t change from generation to generation such as a book from G-d.

    while it is certainly wrong to kill, to accidentally cause someone’s death while defending one’s own life is generally seen to be (if not blameless) at least a defensible position.

    If that’ is true then it isn’t certainly wrong to kill in every circumstance. Obviously there are circumstances where it is ok to kill, it’s just based on your prospective. Some people think you have no right to defend yourself by killing your attacker because he has not forfit his life merely by trying to take yours. Its all about your prospective on innocence.

    “That’s not good enough” is not a made up reason, and usually not the reason used. “There is not enough proof to confirm nor deny” is most frequently the response given.

    Totally agree with you on this one. However, using the example of XGH I was attacking that “type” of person (one who doesn’t care how much proof there is either way and is stuck in their ways) will not be convinced and will not say the later. Rather they will sound stupid and rely on the former. Intelligent people will say the later, but the person in XGH’s example is presented as not intelligent.

    There are many, MANY inconsistencies within the Torah, just as there are within the Bible. One of the top of my head? Certainly. Esther was not married to Xerxes I. She was married to his son, Artaxerxes.

    How is this an inconsistency? Aschasvaros, as he is called in the megillah, IS Artaxerxes. Who ever said it was Xerxes I? Ask any Jewish historian (including Ken Spiro of Aish) it was Artaxerxes! Where did you get the assumption that it was Xerxes? This is certainly not an inconsistency, especially because Aschasvaros even sounds more like Artaxerxes than Xerxes!

    The Torah, like any other document, is open to being questioned. Doing so is not discrimination; it’s the same rigorous testing to which any other historical document is subjected. It should be shown more lenience just because people believe in it? No. If it’s factual, then you shouldn’t have any issue with it being tested for historical accuracy.

    I never said anything to the contrary please stop putting words in my mouth.

    Now, as to Moses’ testimony: There was a wonderful special on the History channel documenting the Exodus. Apparently there is a portion of the Red Sea which recedes at a certain time every night. Let us remember that Moses was not only a spiritual leader, but a general as well. He was well versed in terrain and tactics. It wasn’t a miracle of God that parted the Red Sea. It was the tides. The Israelites got through in time, those chasing them did not. There’s really not alot within the Torah that could not be explained using a little logic and science.

    First of all it’s not Moses’s testimony, its G-d. I have seen the history channel special and I have the same question for you as I have for the special. The Egyptians who had been living in that area and were probably the most powerful nation in the world at that time…DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THE RED SEA’S TIDES? They didn’t know that it could come crashing back at them? More importantly, its just a matter of coincidence that every Jew made it across but all the Egyptians got drowned? Of course a group of starved people who had been slaves for 250 years were able to outrun the greatest army at the time on chariots! That, my friend, is ignoring logic.

    Now, I’m not naive enough to think you’d publish my comment; most people who are ideologically insistent aren’t ordinarily open to dissent. Then again…you may prove me wrong. Some see uncertainty as dangerous. I see it as honest.

    I hate comments like that. Don’t blackmail me into posting your comment. The only comments I have deleted so far are ones that are posted merely for press of their own blogs without adding anything to the conversation. But anyone who makes a comment like that from now on will not have their comments posted. You are naive enough to think that you know how I think, and that is wrong.
    Anyone who really knows what I know (that G-d and the Torah are FACTS and are absolutely true) will take every person ready to attack us, because we have the answers (as I have done with every one of your issues) and that’s why we know we are right. Those who are afraid of debate aren’t secure in their beliefs. Rambam debated all the time with those who opposed him, and won because he knew he was right. As I know I am.

  3. leftcoastlibrul Says:

    My dear sir, I can hardly “blackmail” you into doing anything you do not wish to do. I merely deducted the number of dissenting posts published (of mine, not of those I’ve heard of from other atheists) from the number actually published by blog owners who subscribe to a particular ideology and came up with a very low percentage. I merely wished to let you know I would not be offended either way, and that I did not expect you to respond. How happy you now find me to be proven wrong.

    Now, to the body of your post.

    Regarding the Egyptians: By no means am I asserting that they did not know of the tides. Of course they must have. I would answer your question with one of my own: Has that area been dredged for fossils or artifacts? If it has not, I would conclude that we are not operating with all the facts. I would posit that, rather than ALL of them being drowned, perhaps some were caught off guard and others did not proceed knowing it to be too dangerous, or perhaps ALL waited until the tides receded. Without physical proof regarding either, I would assert the question remains open. However, that then leads us to wonder how the slaves got as far as they did even PRIOR to reaching the Red Sea? Is it not possible there may be a more mundane answer than “G-d did it” ? (I am not, incidentally, mocking you in my use of “G-d”; I must admit I did not note your usage before, but out of respect will continue to observe your custom). I find it difficult to believe that there was no usage of hyperbole; without such archaeological data to back up either assertion, we cannot be sure, no?

    The original book of Esther states she was married to Xerxes the Great, mistaking him for Artaxerxes, and the book of Ezra listed him as King of Persia after Cyrus and Darius, which would make it Xerxes I, not Artaxerxes.

    RE: Killing: Ah, but I did not say it was wrong to kill in every circumstance, merely that killing is wrong, but there are modifiers. Morals, as I had stated earlier, can be viewed as situational. I would say that being atheist does not preclude one from being a moral person, any more than being an orthopedic surgeon precludes one from being a compassionate person, although some evidence may exist to the contrary (sorry, my little joke…I’m a nurse, and orthopods are usually viewed as sadistic jerks). Atheists are moral because they choose to be. There is no need of threat of retribution on high to know the difference between right and wrong. I don’t need a priest or a shaman or a rabbi to tell me that hurting someone else is wrong, or that helping others is right. Do you REALLY need your rabbi telling you your soul will be forsaken to Sheol if you run someone down in your car in a murderous rage in order to stop you from doing so? Of course not. You are a moral person; you would not do it in any case.

    Many interesting studies have been done among primates and other mammals. In each case, they all have moral codes; rules by which the society lives. I’d be happy to provide a citation if you’d care to read on it further. Morals are societal rules which are considered healthy and good for the tribe.

    Now, all this said, I do wish you’d back off a bit on the whole idea that I’m attacking you. What I said is hardly an attack, or even more than a mild disagreement. As to the Torah being fact: I think the jury is still out on the entire book, but there are many facts in it. I greatly enjoyed discussing it with the rabbi I friended in my late teens. Though he was not able to stop me from becoming an atheist, he did correct many of my misconceptions and helped me make an informed choice. As a result, I’ve always appreciated debating with those of the Jewish faith over those of the Christian varieties; they’re more open to dissent. Hasidism, in particular, has always fascinated me.

  4. S.O.S. Says:

    > Not only is there a document that is attested to be true at the time by over 2 million people, but this book has an unbroken chain since that time with little to no questioning of differences in the existing text since (besides additions).

    How do you know the chain is unbroken? How do you even know the book was intended to be “historical”?

    > No rational G-d freaking Jew who is worth his weight in gold actually uses that argument.

    They all do when it comes down to it. Of course, they use in conjunction with a number of other worthless arguments.

    > 1) This is the ONLY book that claims that G-d appeared to more than 1 person at a time, certainly the only one that claims a revelation to 2 million people.

    You haven’t learnt very much history have you? Regardless, the uniqueness of a book is hardly an argument for its varsity.

    > 2) I love how liberals all believe that moral values can be out of date. If they are moral values they should be a constant

    The Torah has nothing to do with morality, it simply includes a number of god mandated laws. The power of these laws is derived from a contract between the people and this god known as a “covenant.” These “laws” do not apply to god himself so they can hardly be said to be “consistent.”

    > 3) This “typical collection of far fetched miracles” is only typical because all the other major western religions based their stories off of ours.

    These are “typical” as in they are exactly the kind of miracles you would expect an ANE civilization to write about.

    > In the Torah it specifically lists by name all the animals that have split hooves but don’t chew their cud, and chew their cud but don’t have split hooves.

    The Torah never even claims this list is comprehensive and its a good thing it doesn’t. Otherwise we might wonder why the list does not include the peccary, babirussa, warthog and llama. We also might wonder about why the hair and the hyrax are listed as animals that ruminate.

    > Over and over it says “the rules that I have given you” the book that “I wrote”.

    We have no way of knowing whether the “rules” or “book” referred to is the Torah.

    > I recall when people say killing 6 million people is impossible.

    Find me a quote from a single scientists who made this claim. Perhaps thinkers thought it was extremely unlikely that people would commit this atrocity but that doesn’t mean they thought it was scientifically impossible for this to happen. Plenty of what the Torah says, specifically in Genesis, is scientifically impossible. Much more of it is historically implausible.

    > If you are talking about Tanach then yeah of course they were written at different times!

    He is clearly referring to the Pentateuch and the experts he is referring to are scholars of higher biblical criticism.

    > Well if someone told this to me, i would argue the same way I have, and then he would come up with some made up excuse like “that’s not good enough” and walk away.

    Or he would write a whole blog entry defending his absurd religion.

  5. M.D. Says:

    “And yet, since the giving of the Torah not one, NOT ONE animal has been discovered beyond the list given in the Torah that has one and not the other. That is way beyond coincidence or good luck. That’s divine.”

    That’s simply incorrect. Many species have been discovered which have only one sign and not the other. The standard chareidi answer is to kvetch and say that really llamas are camels, etc, but there is certainly no reason to accept the proof.

  6. SJ Says:

    Cheerer, to respond to one of your points:

    >>> Not only is there a document that is attested to
    be true at the time by over 2 million people, but
    this book has an unbroken chain since that time with
    ittle to no questioning of differences in the existing
    text since (besides additions).

    The earliest known written document of anything in the
    Bible is the dead sea scrolls. They do not date back
    to biblical times but rather from 150 BC to 70 AD.

    Also, authoritarian governments can make anything to be
    true for large large numbers of ppl, i.e. soviet union,
    china, north korea.

    There is also a striking lack of contemporary
    documents detailing the events alleged to have
    happened in the Bible, besides the Bible.

    If God did raise a mountain over the heads
    of an entire nation, you’d think people would
    be like ……….. WRITING ABOUT IT.

    Ultimately it is physical proof not heresay that wins the
    day with rational people.

    BTW, Cheerer, it is not mentally healthy for the two of
    you to be so obsessed with the Kvetcher.

  7. cheerer Says:

    How do you even know the book was intended to be “historical”?

    Define historical. Not trying to avoid the question, just don’t know. Do you mean last for many years? An acurate depiction of history? Intended for future people to read?

    They all do when it comes down to it. Of course, they use in conjunction with a number of other worthless arguments.

    If you read what I wrote I dont use that argument at all and thinks is stupid hence the knock on those who do

    You haven’t learnt very much history have you? Regardless, the uniqueness of a book is hardly an argument for its varsity.

    True to an extend but it still remains the only book that claims mass revelation (for what its worth), and both Islam and Christianity agree that is happened

    These “laws” do not apply to god himself so they can hardly be said to be “consistent.”

    So you are saying that the creator of heaven and earth has to abide by the same law as the beings he created? Thats like saying “mommy how come you get to stay up and i dont???” Because he knows what is best for us even if we dont see it. G-d is good and everything he does is good. Even if we dont see it its all part of the plan (i know that sounds BEYOND cheesy but its true. If we were able to take a step back and see all of history it all fits together towards one end)

    These are “typical” as in they are exactly the kind of miracles you would expect an ANE civilization to write about.

    ANE?

    The Torah never even claims this list is comprehensive and its a good thing it doesn’t. Otherwise we might wonder why the list does not include the peccary, babirussa, warthog and llama. We also might wonder about why the hair and the hyrax are listed as animals that ruminate.

    In fact it does make it finite. There is no e.g., it is these are the only others. As i will repeat in a comment that came after yours claiming that it didn’t mention the llama and arguments like that are crazy. A llama is part of the camel family the Torah doesnt list every subsection of every animal but it does list a member of EVERY family. The same applies to the other animals. Part of the amazing fact is that whole NEW families of animals that are not related to other animals are discovered and NONE of them fall under the single sign rule. The book is supposed to be readable. To list EVERY subsection? Book would be too long to be readable.

    We have no way of knowing whether the “rules” or “book” referred to is the Torah.

    Your right. Its a secondary book too, called the Oral Torah. Or maybe he was referring to the 18 AD baseball prospectus!

    > I recall when people say killing 6 million people is impossible.

    Find me a quote from a single scientists who made this claim.

    Just to show one.

    Plenty of what the Torah says, specifically in Genesis, is scientifically impossible. Much more of it is historically implausible.

    I never claimed they were natural. Thats why its call supernatural or even miracles?

    He is clearly referring to the Pentateuch and the experts he is referring to are scholars of higher biblical criticism.

    It wasn’t clear or I wouldn’t have said it. They can claim all they like that different people wrote it, doesn’t make it right. All of the “five books of Moses” were one author (G-d telling Moshe, and Joshua possibly, what to write). There are people who claim Shakespeare didn’t write all of his stuff. Doesn’t make it right, or wrong.

    Or he would write a whole blog entry defending his absurd religion.

    Nice. Thought we were having a civil conversation and then say that? How about we are cordial and argue. But bible critics hate that. HOW DARE YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING I DONT!!! Well i have my beliefs and you have yours. We can argue it out, but to attack my blog entries that are thought out and based on sources? Just stupid. And my absurd religion? Far more logical then “we live on this earth because, well, the universe was created by the big bang (which i believe is possible BTW)but that big bang just started! Random! Completely!

  8. cheerer Says:

    Like I said in the comment before, bring up the llama is ridiculous and you know it. Llamas are part of the camel family!!! Its not same crazy religious leap to say it includes both since they are very closely related. Its crazy to argue the other way.

  9. cheerer Says:

    The earliest known written document of anything in the
    Bible is the dead sea scrolls. They do not date back
    to biblical times but rather from 150 BC to 70 AD.

    Thats plain not true! That’s what people who know nothing about history say. In fact the oldest could be the Septuagint dating back to the first century of BC so there goes all the AD’s. Plus we have copies of the priestly blessing as far back as 600 BC. And the dead sea scrolls are told to date back to around 1 BC also, so even that you were mistaken about. Also merely because we don’t have copies of them doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. Especially when discussing the ransacking of the Great Library, there are TON of works that used to exist that don’t anymore in their original form.

    Also, authoritarian governments can make anything to be
    true for large large numbers of ppl, i.e. soviet union,
    china, north korea.

    And yet we have no known recollection of people talking about their forced belief in the Torah, while we have plenty of that under the USSR China and NK.

    If God did raise a mountain over the heads
    of an entire nation, you’d think people would
    be like ……….. WRITING ABOUT IT.

    They did. It was this amazing book called….um…its on the tip of my tongue, oh yeah THE TORAH. Also lets be very clear. The mountain being held over B”Y head is a midrash. When it comes to midrashim it doesn’t mean they are always true. Just because it is wildly accepted doesn’t mean its true because it is CLEAR that not all midrashim are true. When mishiach comes we will find out for sure.

    Ultimately it is physical proof not heresay that wins the
    day with rational people.

    So all of those 1st person accounts of various points in history? Dont count? (also as the only lawyer in the room, i will remind the members of the jury that there are TONS of exceptions and exemptions to the hearsay rule because there are instances when it is reliable such as present sense impression or an impression someone is talking about as it happens such as Nasheh v’ Nishma.)

    BTW, Cheerer, it is not mentally healthy for the two of
    you to be so obsessed with the Kvetcher.

    There is one of me btw, and i don’t find it an obsession more of a fascination!

  10. SJ Says:

    lol factual bull crap I know it’s you XD

    most of your post is nonsense. that’s one.

    secondly in the torah there’s the golden calf incident in which dissent from the religion of E was killed off.

    thirdly, the raising of the mountain is mainstream orthodox judaism.

  11. cheerer Says:

    Factual bull crap? Dont get it. Please explain…

    secondly in the torah there’s the golden calf incident in which dissent from the religion of E was killed off.

    Yes that is true but you are misinterprating your own argument. You argued that the governments of the USSR, China and NK forced people into making something true.. In this case they were being killed for violating the laws, but no was was being killed because they didnt believe something to be true. Its not like they built the calf because they didn’t believe in G-d. Reread your Torah and you will see they built the calf because they wanted to reconnect with G-d since they thought Moshe was dead. It had NOTHING to do with dessention. But of course why should the facts mean anything to you?

    thirdly, the raising of the mountain is mainstream orthodox judaism.

    I will reiterate. Just because mainstream Judaism believes that the midrash about the mountain to the true, doesn’t mean that it is. It is a midrash nothing more. Just like how dont Avaraham was visited by people who the midrash says were angels doesn’t mean its true. They may or may not be, we don’t know which midrashim are accurate or not. You have to get your facts straight before you attack SJ, and a requirement to believe in midrashim just doesn’t exist.

  12. SJ Says:

    lol factual bull crap, you get it, stop this ridiculousness you aren’t fooling me (unless you do in fact have multiple personality disorder XD ), your posts are getting stupider by the post. I think I am going to stop posting here now myself! XD

  13. cheerer Says:

    I didn’t realize Factual bull crap meant FB, and as I said before, he is a friend of mine. He doesn’t post anymore because he didn’t think it was making a difference. I on the other hand have started this blog because I feel it does, and I intend on making a difference

    Everyone out there reading this, notice he did not refute any of my arguments, merely calling them “stupid”. Thats typical of people who cannot handle being proved wrong.

    Remember the posting about personal attacks? That is one. This is a warning, next comment like this will be removed and you will be put into moderation.

  14. cheerer Says:

    Moderated. You were doing so well SJ in the first two paragraphs then the personal attack in the last. I will be moderating your comments from now on and only if they dont have personal attacks will I allow them in.

    You had your warnings

  15. M.D. Says:

    Forget the llama; what about the fact that one of the four one-signed species doesn’t even chew it’s cud, although it looks like it does to the human observer?

  16. cheerer Says:

    I am unaware of this animal… which one?

  17. M.D. Says:

    I recommend reading Natan Slifkin’s “The Camel, the Hare, and the Hyrax” to get a full understanding of this issue.

  18. cheerer Says:

    Well for those of us who have a lot on our plates and may not get around to reading said book, can you give a brief overview or point us somewhere where the point might be explained. Because right now I see nothing to believe such an animal exists.


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